Menachot 81a

וְכִי מַפְרִישִׁין תְּחִלָּה לְמוֹתָרוֹת?

Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi explains why: And does one separate an animal as a leftover ab initio ?

יָתֵיב רַבִּי יִצְחָק בַּר שְׁמוּאֵל בַּר מָרְתָא קַמֵּיהּ דְּרַב נַחְמָן, וְיָתֵיב וְקָאָמַר: וְלַיְיתֵי בְּהֵמָה וְלֶחֶם, וְלֵימָא: אִי הָךְ דְּקָיְימָא תְּמוּרָה הִיא – הָא תּוֹדָה וְהָא לַחְמָהּ, וְאִי הָךְ דְּקָיְימָא תּוֹדָה הִיא – הָא לַחְמָהּ וְהָא תִּהְוֵי תְּמוּרָה.

The Gemara suggests another solution: Rabbi Yitzḥak bar Shmuel bar Marta was sitting before Rav Naḥman, and he was sitting and saying: And let him bring another animal with loaves and let him say: If this animal that is extant is the substitute, then let this be the thanks offering and these its loaves. And if this animal that is extant is the thanks offering, then let these be its loaves and this will be a substitute, as the substitute of a thanks offering is not sacrificed with loaves, and it may be consumed for the same duration as the thanks offering itself.

אֲמַר לֵיהּ: עֲנִי מָרִי, אַרְבְּעִין בְּכַתְפֵּיהּ, וְכָשֵׁר?!

Rav Naḥman said to him: Answer me, my Master: The halakha is that one who separates a substitute is liable to receive forty lashes on his shoulders, and yet you say it is fit to separate a substitute ab initio ?

רַב עִילָּא חֲלַשׁ, עָל לְגַבֵּיהּ אַבָּיֵי וְרַבָּנַן, וְיָתְבִי וְקָא אָמְרִי: אִם אִיתַהּ לִדְרַבִּי יוֹחָנָן דְּאָמַר: חוּץ לְחוֹמַת הָעֲזָרָה קָדוֹשׁ, לַיְיתֵי לֶחֶם וְלוֹתְבַהּ חוּץ לְחוֹמַת הָעֲזָרָה, וְלֵימָא: אִי הָךְ דְּקָיְימָא תּוֹדָה הִיא – הָא לַחְמָהּ, וְאִי לָא – לִיפּוֹק לְחוּלִּין.

The Gemara relates that Rav Ila took ill, and Abaye and the Sages went to visit him, and they were sitting and saying: If one accepts the ruling of Rabbi Yoḥanan, who said: If the loaves of the thanks offering were within Jerusalem, i.e., the area of consumption of a thanks offering and its loaves, even if they were outside the wall of the Temple courtyard when the thanks offering was slaughtered they are consecrated, then let the owner bring loaves and set them outside the wall of the Temple courtyard and let him say: If this animal that is extant is the thanks offering, then let these be its loaves, and if it is not, let them go out and be consumed as non-sacred loaves.

מִשּׁוּם דְּאִיכָּא אַרְבַּע לְהָנִיף, הֵיכִי לֶיעְבֵּיד? לַנְפִינְהוּ אַבָּרַאי? ״לִפְנֵי ה׳״ כְּתִיב! גַּוַּואי? קָא מְעַיֵּיל חוּלִּין לָעֲזָרָה! הִלְכָּךְ, לָא אֶפְשָׁר.

The Gemara responds: This too is not a valid remedy, because there are four loaves of the forty that one must wave. How would he perform the mitzva of waving them? Shall he wave them outside the Temple courtyard? He may not, since “waved for a wave offering before the Lord” (Leviticus 7:30) is written in the verse, and waving performed outside the Temple courtyard is not considered “before the Lord.” Shall he wave them inside the Temple courtyard? He will have brought non-sacred food into the Temple courtyard. Therefore, it is not possible.

מַתְקֵיף לַהּ רַב שִׁישָׁא בְּרֵיהּ דְּרַב אִידִי: אִם אִיתַהּ לִדְחִזְקִיָּה, דְּאָמַר קָדְשׁוּ אַרְבָּעִים מִתּוֹךְ שְׁמוֹנִים – לַיְיתֵי בְּהֵמָה, וְלַיְיתֵי שְׁמוֹנִים בַּהֲדַהּ, וְלֵימָא: אִי הָךְ דְּקָיְימָא תּוֹדָה הִיא – הָא נָמֵי תֶּיהְוֵי תּוֹדָה, וְהָא שְׁמוֹנִים דְּתַרְוַיְיהוּ; אִי הָךְ דְּקָיְימָא תְּמוּרָה הִיא – הָא תּוֹדָה וְהָא לַחְמָהּ, וְלִיקְדְּשׁוּ לְהוּ אַרְבָּעִים מִתּוֹךְ שְׁמוֹנִים!

Rav Sheisha, son of Rav Idi, objects to this: If one accepts the ruling of Ḥizkiyya, who said with regard to a thanks offering that one slaughtered accompanied by eighty loaves rather than the required forty: Forty of the eighty loaves are consecrated, then let the owner bring an animal and let him bring eighty loaves with it and say: If this animal that is extant is the thanks offering, then this additional animal should also be a thanks offering and these eighty loaves should be for both of them. And if this animal that is extant is the substitute, then let this additional animal be a thanks offering and these shall be its loaves, and let forty of the eighty be consecrated for it.

מִשּׁוּם דְּקָא מְמַעֵט בַּאֲכִילָה דְּאַרְבָּעִים.

The Gemara rejects this: This is not a valid remedy, because it reduces the consumption of the forty additional loaves, as the priests may not be able to consume the four loaves given from the additional forty, and the owner cannot consume them because they may be the portion of the priest.

אֲמַר לֵיהּ רַב אָשֵׁי לְרַב כָּהֲנָא: אִם אִיתָא לִדְרַבִּי יוֹחָנָן, דְּאָמַר: הִפְרִישׁ חַטָּאת מְעוּבֶּרֶת וְיָלְדָה – רָצָה בָּהּ מִתְכַּפֵּר, רָצָה בִּוְולָדָהּ מִתְכַּפֵּר, לַיְיתֵי בְּהֵמָה מְעוּבֶּרֶת וְיַמְתִּין לָהּ עַד שֶׁתֵּלֵד, וְלַיְיתֵי שְׁמוֹנִים בַּהֲדַהּ, וְלֵימָא: אִי הָךְ דְּקָיְימָא תְּמוּרָה הִיא – הָא וּוְלָדָהּ תּוֹדָה הִיא, וְהָא שְׁמוֹנִים דְּתַרְוַויְיהוּ; וְאִי הָךְ דְּקָיְימָא תּוֹדָה הִיא – הָא נָמֵי תּוֹדָה הִיא, וְהָא שְׁמוֹנִים דְּתַרְוַויְיהוּ הוּא, וְהַאי לֶיהֱוֵי מוֹתָר דְּתוֹדָה.

Rav Ashi said to Rav Kahana: If one accepts the ruling of Rabbi Yoḥanan, who said: If one separated a pregnant animal as a sin offering and it gave birth, if he wants he can achieve atonement with it, and if he wants he can achieve atonement with its offspring; then let the owner bring a pregnant animal and wait until it gives birth, and let him bring eighty loaves with it and say: If this animal that is extant is the substitute, then this and its offspring are thanks offerings, and these eighty loaves should be for both of them. And if this animal that is extant is the thanks offering, then this mother should also be a thanks offering, and these eighty loaves should be for both of them, and let this offspring be the leftover of the thanks offering.

אֲמַר לֵיהּ: מַאן לֵימָא לַן דְּאָמַר רַבִּי יוֹחָנָן אִם שִׁיְּירוֹ מְשׁוּיָּיר? דִּלְמָא אִם שִׁיְּירוֹ אֵינוֹ מְשׁוּיָּיר, וְהַיְינוּ טַעְמָא דְּרַבִּי יוֹחָנָן, דְּאָמַר: אָדָם מִתְכַּפֵּר בִּשְׁבַח הֶקְדֵּשׁ.

Rav Kahana said to him: Who shall say to us that the reasoning of Rabbi Yoḥanan is that he said that the offspring is considered the property of the one who dedicated the pregnant mother, such that if he reserved it for a specific consecration it is considered reserved for that consecration? Perhaps Rabbi Yoḥanan holds that if he reserved it, it is not considered reserved, and this is the reason that Rabbi Yoḥanan holds that one can achieve atonement with the offspring of a pregnant animal separated as a sin offering, as he said: A person achieves atonement with the enhancement of consecrated property, such as the offspring of an animal that was consecrated when pregnant.

רָבִינָא אִיקְּלַע לְדַמְהַורְיָא, אֲמַר לֵיהּ רַב דִּימִי בְּרֵיהּ דְּרַב הוּנָא מִדַּמְהַורְיָא לְרָבִינָא: וְלַיְיתֵי בְּהֵמָה, וְלֵימָא ״הֲרֵי עָלַי״, וְלַיְיתֵי בְּהֵמָה אַחֲרִיתִי, וְלַיְיתֵי שְׁמוֹנִים בַּהֲדַהּ, וְלֵימָא: אִי הָךְ דְּקָיְימָא תְּמוּרָה הִיא – הָנֵי תַּרְתֵּי תּוֹדוֹת, וְהָא שְׁמוֹנִים דְּתַרְוַיְיהוּ; וְאִי הָךְ דְּקָיְימָא תּוֹדָה הִיא – וְהָא דְּאָמְרִי ״עֲלַי״ נָמֵי לֶיהֱוֵי תּוֹדָה, וְהָא שְׁמוֹנִים דְּתַרְוַיְיהוּ, וְאִידַּךְ תִּהְוֵי לְאַחְרָיוּת.

Ravina happened to come to Dimhorya. Rav Dimi, son of Rav Huna from Dimhorya, said to Ravina: And let the owner bring an animal and say: It is incumbent upon me to bring an animal for a thanks offering, and let him separate this animal in fulfillment of his vow, and then let him bring another animal, and let him bring eighty loaves with it and say: If this animal that is extant is the substitute, then these two additional animals are thanks offerings and these eighty loaves should be for both of them. And if this animal that is extant is the thanks offering, then this one for which I said: It is incumbent upon me, should also be a thanks offering, and these eighty loaves are for both of them, and let the other animal be for a guarantee, to be sacrificed if my thanks offering gets lost, and it does not require loaves.

אֲמַר לֵיהּ: הַתּוֹרָה אָמְרָה ״טוֹב אֲשֶׁר לֹא תִדֹּר מִשֶּׁתִּדּוֹר וְלֹא תְשַׁלֵּם״, וְאַתְּ אָמְרַתְּ: לֵיקוּם וְלִינְדּוֹר בַּתְּחִילָּה?!

Ravina said to him: The Torah said: “Better is it that you should not vow, than that you should vow and not pay” (Ecclesiastes 5:4), and you say: Let him rise up and vow ab initio ? Taking a vow to bring an offering is not encouraged. As all possible remedies have been rejected, the statement of Rabbi Ḥiyya, that there is no remedy in a case where a thanks offering and its substitute were intermingled and one of them died, stands.

מַתְנִי׳ הָאוֹמֵר ״הֲרֵי עָלַי תּוֹדָה״ – יָבִיא הִיא וְלַחְמָהּ מִן הַחוּלִּין.

MISHNA: One who says: It is incumbent upon me to bring a thanks offering, must bring it and its loaves from non-sacred money in his possession and not second-tithe money. Since he said: It is incumbent upon me, bringing the offering is an obligation, and one may not fulfill an obligation with second-tithe money.