Zevachim 87b

שֶׁקִּיבְּלוּ פְּסוּלִין וְזָרְקוּ אֶת דָּמוֹ; מַאי, לָאו שֶׁקִּיבְּלוּ פְּסוּלִין וְזָרְקוּ פְּסוּלִין?

An offering that people unfit for performing the Temple service collected and then sprinkled its blood shall not descend from the altar if it ascended. What, is it not that the mishna means that people unfit for performing the Temple service collected the blood and people unfit for performing the Temple service sprinkled it as well, which disqualifies it from ascending the altar? But if the collection alone was performed by people unfit for performing the Temple service, although the offering becomes disqualified, those fit to perform the Temple service may sprinkle the blood and sacrifice the offering ab initio . The reason, apparently, is that service vessels sanctify disqualified blood such that it may be sprinkled ab initio .

לֹא, שֶׁקִּיבְּלוּ פְּסוּלִין. אִי נָמֵי שֶׁזָּרְקוּ פְּסוּלִין.

Reish Lakish rejects this proof: No, the mishna may be referring to two independent cases, i.e., that people unfit for performing the Temple service collected the blood, or that people unfit for performing the Temple service sprinkled the blood after it was collected by people who were fit for performing the Temple service. Accordingly, the mishna teaches only that if such offerings ascended the altar they shall not descend after the fact, but service vessels do not sanctify disqualified items such that they are offered ab initio .

אֲוִיר מִזְבֵּחַ – כְּמִזְבֵּחַ דָּמֵי, אוֹ לָא? תָּא שְׁמַע: כְּשֵׁם שֶׁהַמִּזְבֵּחַ מְקַדֵּשׁ, כָּךְ כֶּבֶשׁ מְקַדֵּשׁ.

§ The Gemara raises a dilemma: Is the airspace above the altar considered as the altar itself, whereby items that enter this airspace shall not descend from the altar, or is it not considered like the altar? The Gemara suggests: Come and hear the mishna, which states: Just as the altar sanctifies items, so too, the ramp sanctifies items, and if they ascended upon it they shall be sacrificed upon the altar and shall not descend.

וְאִי אָמְרַתְּ אֲוִיר מִזְבֵּחַ לָאו כַּמִּזְבֵּחַ דָּמֵי – אֲוִיר כֶּבֶשׁ נָמֵי לָאו כְּכֶבֶשׂ דָּמֵי; הֵיכִי מַסֵּיק לֵיהּ מִכֶּבֶשׁ לְמִזְבֵּחַ? הָוֵה לֵיהּ יָרוּד!

And if you say that the airspace above the altar is not considered as the altar itself, then the airspace above the ramp as well should not be considered as the ramp. If so, how can one elevate the disqualified limbs of an offering from the ramp to the altar? The moment one elevates a limb from upon the ramp, it is considered to have descended from the ramp, and all disqualified items that descended shall not be returned.

דְּנָגֵד לֵיהּ. וְהָא אֲוִיר יֵשׁ בֵּין כֶּבֶשׁ לַמִּזְבֵּחַ! רוּבּוֹ לַכֶּבֶשׁ – כַּכֶּבֶשׁ, רוּבּוֹ לַמִּזְבֵּחַ – כַּמִּזְבֵּחַ.

The Gemara responds: The mishna is referring to a case where the priest drags the offering up the ramp, but it never enters its airspace. The Gemara challenges: But even if he drags it up the ramp, he must still lift it, as there is a space between the ramp and the altar. The Gemara responds: Since this gap is small, only a minority of the limb of an offering will be located over the gap as it passes from the ramp to the altar. Therefore, when a majority of the limb is on the ramp, the minority situated above the gap is considered as if it is on the ramp. Once a majority of the limb is on the altar, the minority situated above the gap is considered as if it is on the altar.

תִּפְשׁוֹט מֵהָא – הָא דְּבָעֵי רָמֵי בַּר חָמָא יֵשׁ חִיבּוּר לְעוֹלִין אוֹ לָא, תִּיפְשׁוֹט דְּיֵשׁ חִיבּוּר! הָא לָא קַשְׁיָא, תִּיפְשׁוֹט.

The Gemara asks: If so, resolve from this mishna the dilemma that was raised by Rami bar Ḥama: Is there a connection of limbs that ascend upon the altar, i.e., is an offering considered a unit such that even those parts that do not ascend the altar shall be considered as if they are upon it, or is there not, and each part is considered independent? Based on the previous answer, resolve the dilemma by saying that there is a connection of limbs. The Gemara responds: This is not difficult, as one may indeed resolve Rami bar Ḥama’s dilemma from here.

מַתְקֵיף לַהּ רָבָא בַּר רַב חָנָן: וְאִי אָמְרַתְּ אֲוִיר מִזְבֵּחַ כַּמִּזְבֵּחַ דָּמֵי, עוֹלַת הָעוֹף דְּפָסְלָה בְּמַחְשָׁבָה הֵיכִי מַשְׁכַּחַתְּ לַהּ?

Rava bar Rav Ḥanan objects to the assumption that the airspace above the altar is considered as the altar itself: But if you say that the airspace above the altar is considered as the altar itself, then with regard to a bird burnt offering that one disqualified by having the intention to burn it beyond its designated time, i.e., the day after it was pinched, how can you find the circumstances for such a disqualification to take effect?

הָא קַלְטַהּ מִזְבֵּחַ!

One’s intent to burn an offering beyond its designated time disqualifies it only when he intended to burn it during a time that he may not do so. Since a bird burnt offering is pinched in the airspace above the altar, the altar has already accepted it. Therefore, even if one delayed burning it until the next day, it does not descend from the altar, like all other offerings that are disqualified by being left overnight.

מַתְקֵיף לַהּ רַב שִׁימִי בַּר אָשֵׁי: אַלְּמָה לָא מַשְׁכַּחַתְּ לַהּ? כְּגוֹן דְּאָמַר: הֲרֵינִי מוֹלְקָהּ עַל מְנָת לְהוֹרִידָהּ לְמָחָר וּלְהַעֲלוֹתָהּ וּלְהַקְטִירָהּ.

Rav Shimi bar Ashi objects to the objection raised by Rava bar Rav Ḥanan: Why is it not possible for a bird burnt offering to be disqualified through the intention to burn it beyond its designated time? You find it in a case where he says: I am hereby pinching it in order to take it down from the altar tomorrow and thereafter sacrifice it and burn it. If he takes it down from the altar the next day, he may not subsequently return it there for burning, as all disqualified items that have descended from the altar shall not be returned to it. Accordingly, even if the airspace above the altar is considered as the altar itself, a bird burnt offering can still be disqualified with such intention.

הָנִיחָא לְרָבָא, דְּאָמַר: לִינָה מוֹעֶלֶת בְּרֹאשׁ הַמִּזְבֵּחַ; אֶלָּא לְרַבָּה, דְּאָמַר: אֵין לִינָה מוֹעֶלֶת בְּרֹאשׁ הַמִּזְבֵּחַ – לֵיתָא לְמַחְשַׁבְתּוֹ!

The Gemara questions the objection of Rav Shimi bar Ashi: This works out well according to the opinion of Rava, who says that the disqualification of being left overnight is effective even when the offering is at the top of the altar. Accordingly, if he were to take the bird burnt offering down from the altar the next day, he may not restore it to the altar for burning. But this is difficult according to the opinion of Rabba, who says: The disqualification of being left overnight is not effective when the offering is at the top of the altar, and therefore even if the next day he removed the bird burnt offering from the altar, he must return it there to burn it, as it has not been disqualified. If so, his intention is not significant, i.e., he does not disqualify a bird burnt offering with such intention.

לְרַבָּה נָמֵי מַשְׁכַּחַתְּ לַהּ – כְּגוֹן דְּאָמַר: הֲרֵינִי מוֹלְקָהּ עַל מְנָת לְהוֹרִידָהּ קוֹדֵם עַמּוּד הַשַּׁחַר, וּלְהַעֲלוֹתָהּ לְאַחַר עַמּוּד הַשַּׁחַר.

Rav Shimi bar Ashi responds: According to the opinion of Rabba as well, you find a case of a bird burnt offering that is disqualified due to one’s intention, such as where he says: I am hereby pinching it in order to take it down from the altar before dawn and to then sacrifice it after dawn. In such a case, where the offering is removed from the altar before dawn, even Rabba would agree that one’s intention renders a bird burnt offering disqualified by being left overnight.

לְהָךְ גִּיסָא מִיהָא תִּיפְשׁוֹט – דַּאֲוִיר מִזְבֵּחַ כְּמִזְבֵּחַ דָּמֵי; דְּאִי סָלְקָא דַעְתָּךְ אֲוִיר מִזְבֵּחַ לָאו כְּמִזְבֵּחַ דָּמֵי,

Rav Shimi bar Ashi adds: Irrespective of the validity of the proof of Rava bar Rav Ḥanan, in any event, resolve the issue to this side, i.e., in favor of the claim that the airspace above the altar is considered as the altar itself. As if it enters your mind that the airspace above the altar is not considered as the altar,