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Chullin 11b

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Babylonian Talmud · folio map

Chullin 11b

Chullin 11b. The full printed text of this folio side — 11 numbered segments, about 232 words — with the classic commentaries printed on the page.

Original text

Segment 1

דִּילְמָא חַד מִינַּיְיהוּ טְרֵיפָה הוּא? אֶלָּא לָאו מִשּׁוּם דְּאָמְרִינַן: זִיל בָּתַר רוּבָּא.

that perhaps one of the animals, the scapegoat, is a tereifa . Since it is not slaughtered, but is rather cast from a cliff while alive, there is no way to ascertain that it is not a tereifa . Rather, is the reason we are not concerned for this not due to the fact that we say: Follow the majority of animals, which are not tereifot ?

Segment 2

וְכִי תֵּימָא, מַאי נָפְקָא לַן מִינַּהּ? הָא אֵין גּוֹרָל קוֹבֵעַ לַעֲזָאזֵל אֶלָּא בְּדָבָר הָרָאוּי לַשֵּׁם. וְכִי תֵּימָא דְּבָדְקִינַן לֵיהּ, וְהָתְנַן: לֹא הָיָה מַגִּיעַ לְמַחֲצִית הֶהָר עַד שֶׁנַּעֲשֶׂה אֵבָרִים אֵבָרִים.

And if you would seek to reject that proof and say that there is no need for an examination, as what practical difference is there to us whether it is a tereifa , since it is neither eaten nor sacrificed, and the two goats are fit after the fact even if they are not equal (see Yoma 62a); doesn’t the lot determine the goat for Azazel only with regard to an item, a goat, that is fit for sacrifice to the Lord? And if you would say that we examine the goat after it is cast from the cliff and do not rely on a majority, but didn’t we learn in a mishna ( Yoma 67a): The goat did not reach halfway down the mountain until it was torn limb from limb.

Segment 3

רַב מָרִי אָמַר: אָתְיָא מִמַּכֵּה אָבִיו וְאִמּוֹ, דְּאָמַר רַחֲמָנָא קַטְלֵיהּ, וְלֵיחוּשׁ דִּלְמָא לָאו אָבִיו הוּא? אֶלָּא לָאו מִשּׁוּם דְּאָמְרִינַן: זִיל בָּתַר רוּבָּא, וְרוֹב בְּעִילוֹת אַחַר הַבַּעַל.

Rav Mari said: The fact that one follows a non-quantifiable majority is derived from the halakha of one who strikes his father or his mother, with regard to whom the Merciful One states: Kill him (see Exodus 21:15). Rav Mari clarifies: But let us be concerned that perhaps the man that he struck is not actually his father. Rather, is the reason we are not concerned for this not due to the fact that we say: Follow the majority, and the majority of acts of intercourse performed by a married woman are attributable to the husband.

Segment 4

מִמַּאי? דִּלְמָא כְּגוֹן שֶׁהָיוּ אָבִיו וְאִמּוֹ חֲבוּשִׁים בְּבֵית הָאֲסוּרִין! אֲפִילּוּ הָכִי, אֵין אַפּוֹטְרוֹפּוֹס לַעֲרָיוֹת.

The Gemara asks: From where is that conclusion drawn? Perhaps the reference is to a case where at the time he was conceived his mother and father were incarcerated together in prison. Therefore, the fact that it was his father that he struck is based on certainty, not a majority. The Gemara answers: Even so, there is no steward [ apotropos ] for restraining sexual immorality, and the identity of his father is not based on certainty.

Segment 5

רַב כָּהֲנָא אָמַר: אָתְיָא מֵהוֹרֵג אֶת הַנֶּפֶשׁ, דְּאָמַר רַחֲמָנָא: קַטְלֵיהּ, וְלֵיחוּשׁ דִּלְמָא טְרֵפָה הֲוָה? אֶלָּא לָאו מִשּׁוּם דְּאָמְרִינַן: זִיל בָּתַר רוּבָּא.

Rav Kahana said: It is derived from the halakha of one who kills another person, with regard to whom the Merciful One states: Kill him (see Exodus 21:12). Rav Kahana clarifies: And let us be concerned that perhaps the person that he killed was a tereifa , one who has a wound or condition that will lead to his death within twelve months. One who kills a tereifa is exempt from capital punishment because in that sense, the halakhic status of a tereifa is that of a dead person. Rather, is the reason we are not concerned for this not due to the fact that we say: Follow the majority of people, who are not tereifot ?

Segment 6

וְכִי תֵּימָא דְּבָדְקִינַן לֵיהּ, הָא קָא מִינַּוַּול, וְכִי תֵּימָא מִשּׁוּם אִיבּוּד נְשָׁמָה דְּהַאי – נִינַוְּולֵיהּ, וְנֵיחוּשׁ שֶׁמָּא בִּמְקוֹם סַיִיף נֶקֶב הֲוָה.

And if you would seek to reject that proof and say that we examine the corpse to determine whether he was a tereifa , wouldn’t the corpse be mutilated through that examination? And if you would say that due to concern for the possibility of an unjustified loss of life of that murderer, we will mutilate the corpse to determine whether the victim was a tereifa , it would remain necessary to rely on the majority, as let us be concerned that perhaps there was a perforation in the place that he stabbed the victim with the sword.

Segment 7

רָבִינָא אָמַר: אָתְיָא מֵעֵדִים זוֹמְמִין, דְּאָמַר רַחֲמָנָא: ״וַעֲשִׂיתֶם לוֹ כַּאֲשֶׁר זָמַם וְגוֹ׳״, וְלֵיחוּשׁ דִּלְמָא הָךְ דְּאַסְהִידוּ בֵּיהּ טְרֵפָה הֲוָה? אֶלָּא לָאו מִשּׁוּם דְּאָמְרִינַן: זִיל בָּתַר רוּבָּא.

Ravina said: It is derived from the halakha of conspiring witnesses, with regard to whom the Merciful One states: “And you shall do unto him as he had conspired to do unto his brother” (Deuteronomy 19:19). If the witnesses testified falsely that a person is guilty of a capital offense, they are liable to receive the death penalty. And let us be concerned that perhaps that person against whom they testified was a tereifa , and they should not be executed for conspiring to have a tereifa executed. Rather, is the reason we are not concerned for this not due to the fact that we say: Follow the majority of people, who are not tereifot ?

Segment 8

וְכִי תֵּימָא דְּבָדְקִינַן לֵיהּ, וְהָתַנְיָא: בְּרַבִּי אוֹמֵר: לֹא הָרְגוּ – נֶהֱרָגִין, הָרְגוּ – אֵין נֶהֱרָגִין.

And if you would say in rejection of that proof that we examine the corpse of the executed defendant to determine whether he was a tereifa , but isn’t it taught in a baraita that a distinguished Sage [ beribbi ] says with regard to witnesses who conspired to have a person killed based on their testimony: If the conspiring witnesses have not yet killed the accused with their testimony, they are executed; but if they killed the accused with their testimony, they are not executed.

Segment 9

רַב אָשֵׁי אָמַר: אָתְיָא מִשְּׁחִיטָה עַצְמָהּ, דְּאָמַר רַחֲמָנָא: שְׁחוֹט וֶאֱכוֹל, וְלֵיחוּשׁ שֶׁמָּא בִּמְקוֹם נֶקֶב קָא שָׁחֵיט? אֶלָּא לָאו מִשּׁוּם דְּאָמְרִינַן: זִיל בָּתַר רוּבָּא.

Rav Ashi said: The principle of following a non-quantifiable majority is derived from the halakha of slaughter itself, with regard to which the Merciful One states: Slaughter the animal and eat it. And let us be concerned that perhaps he is slaughtering the animal in the place of a preexisting perforation. Rather, is the reason we are not concerned for this not due to the fact that we say: Follow the majority of animals that are not tereifot ?

Segment 10

אָמַר רַב אָשֵׁי: אַמְרִיתָא לִשְׁמַעְתָּא קַמֵּיהּ דְּרַב כָּהֲנָא, וְאָמְרִי לָהּ רַב כָּהֲנָא קַמֵּיהּ דְּרַב שִׁימִי, וַאֲמַר לֵיהּ: וְדִלְמָא הֵיכָא דְּאֶפְשָׁר – אֶפְשָׁר, הֵיכָא דְּלָא אֶפְשָׁר – לָא אֶפְשָׁר.

Rav Ashi said: I stated this halakha before Rav Kahana, and some say that Rav Kahana stated this halakha before Rav Shimi, and the Sage before whom the halakha was stated said to the one who stated it: And perhaps where it is possible to examine the situation it is possible, and the majority is not followed; but where it is not possible to examine the situation it is not possible, and the majority is followed.

Segment 11

דְּאִי לָא תֵּימָא הָכִי, לְרַבִּי מֵאִיר דְּחָיֵישׁ לְמִיעוּטָא, הָכִי נָמֵי דְּלָא אָכֵיל בִּישְׂרָא? וְכִי תֵּימָא הָכִי נָמֵי,

As if you do not say so, then according to Rabbi Meir, who despite the existence of a majority takes the minority into consideration and does not follow the majority, is it indeed true that one does not eat meat due to the concern that there was a perforation in the place that he slaughtered the animal? And if you would say, indeed, according to Rabbi Meir it is prohibited to eat meat,

Chullin 11b

Chullin 11b

Rashi

Tosafot

Rashba

Meiri

Maharsha (Chidushei Halachot)

Maharam

Gilyon HaShas

Ben Yehoyada

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